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	<title>Comments on: Site Building: Content Management Systems Versus Frameworks</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.designicu.com/blog/cms-or-frameworks/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.designicu.com/blog/cms-or-frameworks/</link>
	<description>Web Sites Made Well</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 10:48:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Jay Gilmore (smashingred)</title>
		<link>http://www.designicu.com/blog/cms-or-frameworks/#comment-423</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay Gilmore (smashingred)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2008 11:26:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.designicu.com/blog/?p=14#comment-423</guid>
		<description>First, great post. You have addressed a number of issues with some FOSS CMS apps and countered with the issues of rolling your own. 

I'd certainly look at CodeIgniter or Symfony if you are rolling your own from BUT limits of rolling your own complete solution include issues with scalability (RoRs scalability issues are vastly overblown). The huge advantage of a FOSS app is that you can benefit from a network of support that you don't have with your own solution. 

My experience with many of the PHP Frameworks is that 80%+ members of the community are beginners just in it to solve their own problem and you can be left taking the advice of novices.

I'm a Marketing Team member of the modx CMS project and sure I'd suggest looking at modx--especially Revolution (currently in public alpha) but no matter what solution you choose you are going to need to weigh your workflow, extensibilty and importantly end user experience.

Thanks for the post.

Cheers,

Jay Gilmore</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First, great post. You have addressed a number of issues with some FOSS CMS apps and countered with the issues of rolling your own. </p>
<p>I&#8217;d certainly look at CodeIgniter or Symfony if you are rolling your own from BUT limits of rolling your own complete solution include issues with scalability (RoRs scalability issues are vastly overblown). The huge advantage of a FOSS app is that you can benefit from a network of support that you don&#8217;t have with your own solution. </p>
<p>My experience with many of the PHP Frameworks is that 80%+ members of the community are beginners just in it to solve their own problem and you can be left taking the advice of novices.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m a Marketing Team member of the modx CMS project and sure I&#8217;d suggest looking at modx&#8211;especially Revolution (currently in public alpha) but no matter what solution you choose you are going to need to weigh your workflow, extensibilty and importantly end user experience.</p>
<p>Thanks for the post.</p>
<p>Cheers,</p>
<p>Jay Gilmore</p>
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		<title>By: Kongondo</title>
		<link>http://www.designicu.com/blog/cms-or-frameworks/#comment-422</link>
		<dc:creator>Kongondo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Sep 2008 12:58:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.designicu.com/blog/?p=14#comment-422</guid>
		<description>Have you had a look at modx? This is one beautiful, powerful CMS that will let you design to your satisfaction. It uses normal xhtml/css templates meaning you are not constrained as a designer at all. At the same time, it packs a powerful punch in what it calls template variables. This will allow you to extend your website in so many ways. If you know some php then what you can do with modx is really up to your imagination. Give it a try...

http://modxcms.com/

Cheers
/k</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have you had a look at modx? This is one beautiful, powerful CMS that will let you design to your satisfaction. It uses normal xhtml/css templates meaning you are not constrained as a designer at all. At the same time, it packs a powerful punch in what it calls template variables. This will allow you to extend your website in so many ways. If you know some php then what you can do with modx is really up to your imagination. Give it a try&#8230;</p>
<p><a href="http://modxcms.com/" rel="nofollow">http://modxcms.com/</a></p>
<p>Cheers<br />
/k</p>
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		<title>By: George</title>
		<link>http://www.designicu.com/blog/cms-or-frameworks/#comment-421</link>
		<dc:creator>George</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Sep 2008 00:13:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.designicu.com/blog/?p=14#comment-421</guid>
		<description>I like some of the original thoughts here on "spend your time designing and learning an integrated system, instead of programming and having do deal with complex CMS's" . Ive tried Expression and its great, but, the implementation of forms and sites still bugs me...and Ive tried Joomla, Drupal(with a skin by some dudes), but, Im really looking for a true designer tool that lets me create what I want without having to program for implementation or SQL or the CMS or some SEO tagging etc.  I like the direction that Sitemasher is going as I have played with it for a few hours...I need to spend more time there.  It seems like everyone is dancing around some of the core problems that never seem to get fixed. DEALING WITH CODE AT EVERY TURN!! Has anyone built a site in Sitemasher and gone live?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like some of the original thoughts here on &#8220;spend your time designing and learning an integrated system, instead of programming and having do deal with complex CMS&#8217;s&#8221; . Ive tried Expression and its great, but, the implementation of forms and sites still bugs me&#8230;and Ive tried Joomla, Drupal(with a skin by some dudes), but, Im really looking for a true designer tool that lets me create what I want without having to program for implementation or SQL or the CMS or some SEO tagging etc.  I like the direction that Sitemasher is going as I have played with it for a few hours&#8230;I need to spend more time there.  It seems like everyone is dancing around some of the core problems that never seem to get fixed. DEALING WITH CODE AT EVERY TURN!! Has anyone built a site in Sitemasher and gone live?</p>
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		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://www.designicu.com/blog/cms-or-frameworks/#comment-420</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2008 18:20:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.designicu.com/blog/?p=14#comment-420</guid>
		<description>More discussion concerning the problems with off-the-shelf CMS apps over here...

http://redotheweb.com/2008/09/19/designing-a-cms-architecture/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>More discussion concerning the problems with off-the-shelf CMS apps over here&#8230;</p>
<p><a href="http://redotheweb.com/2008/09/19/designing-a-cms-architecture/" rel="nofollow">http://redotheweb.com/2008/09/19/designing-a-cms-architecture/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Don</title>
		<link>http://www.designicu.com/blog/cms-or-frameworks/#comment-418</link>
		<dc:creator>Don</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Sep 2008 22:11:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.designicu.com/blog/?p=14#comment-418</guid>
		<description>Because of some of the same problems you have outlined here, I decided to create my own CMS system. 

The problem is you can code up a simple cms, but it's time consuming and not cheap (if you can't do it yourself). Or you can use a Wordpress or Drupal and find yourself restricted by a steep learning curve and more functionality than you might need (both are great for content rich sites).

I created Clover Content to be a simple cms that you can plug in to any site, anywhere. It's really easy to use too. It makes editable areas on a site "widget-like".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Because of some of the same problems you have outlined here, I decided to create my own CMS system. </p>
<p>The problem is you can code up a simple cms, but it&#8217;s time consuming and not cheap (if you can&#8217;t do it yourself). Or you can use a Wordpress or Drupal and find yourself restricted by a steep learning curve and more functionality than you might need (both are great for content rich sites).</p>
<p>I created Clover Content to be a simple cms that you can plug in to any site, anywhere. It&#8217;s really easy to use too. It makes editable areas on a site &#8220;widget-like&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Deron Sizemore</title>
		<link>http://www.designicu.com/blog/cms-or-frameworks/#comment-382</link>
		<dc:creator>Deron Sizemore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 04:34:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.designicu.com/blog/?p=14#comment-382</guid>
		<description>I would suggest giving ExpressionEngine a try as Kevin suggested. Before EE, I tried 10 or so other CMS's and I just couldn't get anything done in them. Once I started using EE, everything just seemed to make sense and I was able to do the things I wanted to do in a lot less time.I wish I had the know-how to develop my own with PHP, Ruby on Rails, or Django but I just don't and don't have the desire to work with it long enough to learn. Right now anyway, EE does everything (and more) that I'll ever need.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would suggest giving ExpressionEngine a try as Kevin suggested. Before EE, I tried 10 or so other CMS&#8217;s and I just couldn&#8217;t get anything done in them. Once I started using EE, everything just seemed to make sense and I was able to do the things I wanted to do in a lot less time.I wish I had the know-how to develop my own with PHP, Ruby on Rails, or Django but I just don&#8217;t and don&#8217;t have the desire to work with it long enough to learn. Right now anyway, EE does everything (and more) that I&#8217;ll ever need.</p>
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		<title>By: Derek Lawless</title>
		<link>http://www.designicu.com/blog/cms-or-frameworks/#comment-381</link>
		<dc:creator>Derek Lawless</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 22:17:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.designicu.com/blog/?p=14#comment-381</guid>
		<description>TBH I wouldn't rule Rails out based on the ongoing Twitter scalability problems (which is what I think you're referring to).

Twitter has a very specific kind of engineering problem which others have gone into detail on elsewhere. It's debatable how much of the problem can be laid at Rails itself, and how much is a result of poor design choices.

It's unlikely you or I are going to hit a similar wall unless we're lucky enough to have the next Twitter on our hands.

This is a very hard decision to make and it's something I've flip-flopped on many times. Using an off the shelf package you get the benefit of being able to hit the ground running and take advantage of improvements as they're added in by the community.

The big downside for me is that if, as you say, you want to heavily customise the package you're usually in for a world of hurt. 

I tend to favour the roll your own approach because of this. There's an initial lag in terms of getting your own mini platform together, but you get the benefit of knowing it inside out and building just enough to solve your problems.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TBH I wouldn&#8217;t rule Rails out based on the ongoing Twitter scalability problems (which is what I think you&#8217;re referring to).</p>
<p>Twitter has a very specific kind of engineering problem which others have gone into detail on elsewhere. It&#8217;s debatable how much of the problem can be laid at Rails itself, and how much is a result of poor design choices.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s unlikely you or I are going to hit a similar wall unless we&#8217;re lucky enough to have the next Twitter on our hands.</p>
<p>This is a very hard decision to make and it&#8217;s something I&#8217;ve flip-flopped on many times. Using an off the shelf package you get the benefit of being able to hit the ground running and take advantage of improvements as they&#8217;re added in by the community.</p>
<p>The big downside for me is that if, as you say, you want to heavily customise the package you&#8217;re usually in for a world of hurt. </p>
<p>I tend to favour the roll your own approach because of this. There&#8217;s an initial lag in terms of getting your own mini platform together, but you get the benefit of knowing it inside out and building just enough to solve your problems.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Warren</title>
		<link>http://www.designicu.com/blog/cms-or-frameworks/#comment-380</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Warren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Aug 2008 15:35:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.designicu.com/blog/?p=14#comment-380</guid>
		<description>You mention that you're primarily a designer. That makes me think you'd be best off getting good at Drupal (which you mention you've at least had a big of experience at), or at least try on ExpressionEngine, which is extremely designer-friendly.

My experience is similar in that I do know a lot of PHP, but my roots are in design. I've often considered firing up CodeIgniter and building my own super-extensible, yet lightweight, CMS that I can build onto over time. However, I have yet to really walk down that path because ExpressionEngine does most of what I want each time I pull it out for a project.

My thought is "why re-write a CMS when I can just use what EE offers me and build a module for the rest?". That said, eventually I'll probably write my own someday, for the experience and for the customizability. In the meantime, I find it more profitable to do the stuff I'm really good at, and use EE to help me along my way.

@Kevin &#38; @Dave
I'd definitely classify myself as a middle guy. I think whoever does the CSS/XHTML is very well-suited to do the templates in whatever CMS is used. And then I often hire a developer for any big customization or module development that's beyond my reach, or that someone else can just do faster than me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You mention that you&#8217;re primarily a designer. That makes me think you&#8217;d be best off getting good at Drupal (which you mention you&#8217;ve at least had a big of experience at), or at least try on ExpressionEngine, which is extremely designer-friendly.</p>
<p>My experience is similar in that I do know a lot of PHP, but my roots are in design. I&#8217;ve often considered firing up CodeIgniter and building my own super-extensible, yet lightweight, CMS that I can build onto over time. However, I have yet to really walk down that path because ExpressionEngine does most of what I want each time I pull it out for a project.</p>
<p>My thought is &#8220;why re-write a CMS when I can just use what EE offers me and build a module for the rest?&#8221;. That said, eventually I&#8217;ll probably write my own someday, for the experience and for the customizability. In the meantime, I find it more profitable to do the stuff I&#8217;m really good at, and use EE to help me along my way.</p>
<p>@Kevin &amp; @Dave<br />
I&#8217;d definitely classify myself as a middle guy. I think whoever does the CSS/XHTML is very well-suited to do the templates in whatever CMS is used. And then I often hire a developer for any big customization or module development that&#8217;s beyond my reach, or that someone else can just do faster than me.</p>
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		<title>By: blog &#187; Hybrid CMS Solution Please &#124; davidbehan &#124; web design - web development - web marketing &#124; ireland</title>
		<link>http://www.designicu.com/blog/cms-or-frameworks/#comment-379</link>
		<dc:creator>blog &#187; Hybrid CMS Solution Please &#124; davidbehan &#124; web design - web development - web marketing &#124; ireland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Aug 2008 12:09:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.designicu.com/blog/?p=14#comment-379</guid>
		<description>[...] was reading a post this morning about CMS vs Frameworks and it got me thinking about how I like to work on projects. I [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] was reading a post this morning about CMS vs Frameworks and it got me thinking about how I like to work on projects. I [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Cannon</title>
		<link>http://www.designicu.com/blog/cms-or-frameworks/#comment-378</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Cannon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Aug 2008 10:24:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.designicu.com/blog/?p=14#comment-378</guid>
		<description>Dave - true, but you can know how things work and not implement them. I know Javascript/HTML/CSS very well, but I'm a better designer when I don't have to worry about implementation and just focus on the design of a site. An architect needs to know how buildings work, but they still hire engineers to double check everything.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave - true, but you can know how things work and not implement them. I know Javascript/HTML/CSS very well, but I&#8217;m a better designer when I don&#8217;t have to worry about implementation and just focus on the design of a site. An architect needs to know how buildings work, but they still hire engineers to double check everything.</p>
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